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0:00:07.8 Junior: If you're planning a psychological safety or a culture transformation initiative or if you're in the midst of one. Here's what you should be wary of a grassroots approach, an à la carte or opt-in approach, poor content choice lack of executive buy-in and a build versus buy miscalculation. Most psychological safety initiatives, most culture transformations fail to meet their objectives and that's our conversation today.

0:00:36.0 Timothy Clark: It is.

0:00:38.6 Junior: Six failure patterns and six solutions. How many culture transformations or psychological safety initiatives have you been a part of Tim.

0:00:45.1 Timothy Clark: I don't know I can't count them but we've seen... So we've seen all these patterns. Where did these come from?

0:00:53.0 Junior: Well a lot of observation. We've worked with hundreds of clients either spearheading the initiative ourselves or partnering with the organization and helping them go through the process. And so we've been party to a lot of successes, a lot of mistakes, some false starts and we figured we're in a pretty interesting position such that we could help out a lot of organizations a lot of L&D professionals avoid some of the quicksand that we have seen and really spend their time doing the most important things because a lot of the failure patterns are not mysterious after you've seen them dozens of times and if you can avoid them and learn through observation instead of experience all the better.

0:01:39.8 Timothy Clark: I would say Junior, we're in the pattern recognition business, we know where the quicksand is. If you're in HR, if you're in L&D, if you're in talent management, I think this is gonna be a helpful episode.

0:01:54.1 Junior: Yeah. Well, organizations get together internally, they say, "What do we want? We want inclusive organizations. We want innovative organizations. How do we get there?" Many organizations recognize that they're gonna have to go through psychological safety they're gonna have to do some culture work in order to achieve those goals and so they set out plans and they say, "Okay, you're gonna be in charge of putting together this initiative. Your team's going to do this. You're going to do this to go and solve the problem." And a lot of people assigned to do that are facing an uphill battle there's not a lot of context and maybe the organization hasn't had that experience before, maybe they're dealing with a legacy culture that's really problematic, they've got some toxicity, maybe the budget's not exactly what they want, maybe there's not a complete alignment across the teams, a lot of different things that can make this complicated. So for those listening if you're in that boat, we feel for you. And we're here to help.

0:02:55.1 Timothy Clark: We're here to help.

0:02:56.7 Junior: So let's get into a McKinsey study that it's pretty interesting McKinsey says that approximately 70% of change programs fail. What do you think about that?

0:03:07.1 Timothy Clark: I think that that is true across the board Junior, but when it comes to a cultural change project a cultural transformation initiative the mortality rate even goes higher. Now we don't have systematic data, an authoritative data source on this, but I think your failure rate is closer to 90% on a large-scale cultural transformation project.

0:03:32.9 Junior: What do you think makes it different? Culture transformation versus an average change management.

0:03:40.9 Timothy Clark: Because culture is so difficult to even define and then approach and then measure. So you've got measurement at the front end you've got design and measurement at the front end you've got an intervention in the middle, and then you've got measurement at the back end. All of those steps are that much more difficult when it comes to culture, the category of culture.

0:04:14.2 Junior: So to help inform the topic selection for the leader factor we have content meetings. And one of these content meetings recently we invited the client partners to come in and share some of their experience about the failure patterns that they've seen or the problems described by prospects and clients as they're having conversations every day. And we took that feedback along with our own intuition and experience and laid out six failure patterns. And so if we jump over to the slides I just wanna show how we've laid this out today. So if I zoom all the way out you'll see we've got two columns in this list, we've got problems and we've got solutions, so we're gonna go through six pairs. And we're going to start off with a lack of executive buy-in, so Tim how important is executive buy-in?

0:05:08.3 Timothy Clark: Ultimately it's essential for success. You may not have it at the beginning or you may have some of it, not all of it. I mean right? So we start from a variety of different places but ultimately to be successful with the initiative you've got to have it.

0:05:28.4 Junior: What do you think will happen if we don't strive for it?

0:05:34.1 Timothy Clark: You're gonna go into a failure pattern. And you're not gonna make it.

0:05:38.5 Junior: Yeah. Well, it's interesting because this is the problem. We have organizations that come to us and say We have a lack of executive buy-in what do we do about that. And it's not something that you can always solve for upfront. If you can, you should. If you can't there are some things that you can do along the way to help better your chances but the absolute unacceptable path is to ignore it. If you just say, "Well, it's not important that we have the buy-in which we had it but I guess we don't so here we are." That is the attitude that's not acceptable that will run you into a wall sooner or later. So even if you don't start with it, it's something that you have to solve for eventually.

0:06:24.3 Timothy Clark: You do.

0:06:25.1 Junior: If you come over to the solution. There are three questions that you should always ask the executive sponsor or any executives that are involved in whatever the culture transformation or psychological safety initiative is. The first one is How committed are you. How committed are you to this initiative. Why might we ask that question?

0:06:52.0 Timothy Clark: Because it's gonna be a long hard slog. And you have to have the commitment to go the distance. If you don't you should not begin because you're going to have what we call an early stage failure so if you look at organizational change management as an applied discipline there is a very common failure pattern at the beginning of the initiative we call it a false start. A false start means that we are not able to assemble a coalition of people that are committed to do it and so we fall apart, we splinter, we fragment and we fail early on. This is an early stage failure what we call false start. Now you may not have lots of executive buy-in to begin with but you've got to have a strategy, you've got to have something to begin with and you've got to have a strategy about how you're going to get that executive buy-in.

0:07:56.9 Junior: So let's talk about these questions practically, if I'm in L&D and I ask these questions, how committed are you? Do you believe in this personally, what are you most wary of? I'm taking the answers to those questions and I'm informing my intervention based on those.

0:08:09.6 Timothy Clark: That's right.

0:08:10.3 Junior: Because if let's say the commitment is low or a two or a three out of 10, there's not a lot of personal belief and I'm very wary of five or six possibilities of failure. As someone who's programming this I'm going to say, "Okay, I need something bite-sized and I need an early win." Because I do not have the buy-in to go and do something that's going to be a six-month sacrifice with no results. Alternatively if I have complete buy-in complete personal conviction, I have budget and resource and we're really going to do this, and we recognize it's gonna be a long, hard slog, maybe you can take a bigger shot up front.

0:08:57.1 Timothy Clark: You can.

0:08:57.9 Junior: And invest in something that's going to be a little bit longer term so really catering that training and the programming originally out the gate based on the answers to these questions in my opinion is crucial. Because you need an early win if you don't have that commitment up front that if you don't have. It's gonna be really hard to continue what's probably inevitably going to be difficult.

0:09:20.3 Timothy Clark: Let me give you a case in point, Junior. So we are working with a multinational technology company and the CEO has said, "This cultural transformation initiative to increase psychological safety is mission-critical. Mission-critical worldwide. We're doing this. This is a top priority." Contrast that with another organization that we're working with where the CEO has said, "I'm not against it. Go try something." So kind of lukewarm in that case what do you need to do? You've got to bring back evidence, bring back results, bring back business impact, otherwise we're not going anywhere. So we're going to start from a variety of places but we need to understand what that implies based on where we are.

0:10:30.9 Junior: Yeah. So take your cues from the answers to those questions program accordingly. Here's the next problem. Grassroots approach, I cannot tell you how many calls I've been on where I've heard this used, we're gonna... It's a grassroots approach. I don't know if I wanna say nine times out of 10 but it's probably nine times out of 10 and doesn't go anywhere. Why? Because as you see here. These types of initiatives are known for misalignment and low energy not that because we say that it's causal but that's just what we have observed.

0:11:07.8 Timothy Clark: And unfortunately when they say We're taking a grassroots approach that is code for we don't have the commitment yet except for the few of us that are so passionate and have such conviction about this but outside of our little circle we don't have it. And we feel for you.

0:11:24.3 Junior: We do.

0:11:26.4 Timothy Clark: We feel for you.

0:11:28.6 Junior: We really do.

0:11:30.9 Timothy Clark: But let's talk about how we get to success.

0:11:33.9 Junior: The nature of grassroots is that the whole initiative is disparate you could have little pockets of the organization that are bought in and maybe there are those of you listening who are part of this grassroots initiative and you're burdened. You have high personal conviction but you're facing an uphill slog to try and get the organization to move how would we solve for this. Quantitative and qualitative measurement. Tim alluded to this in the last point. You need something to show if you don't have data. Good luck. It is going to be virtually impossible for you to scale whatever it is you are doing and so this is our recommendation every single time and it works. You need data to...

0:12:22.8 Timothy Clark: You've got to have data.

0:12:24.9 Junior: Prove that the initiative will make a difference so what does that look like practically speaking. When we're working with an organization and we hear hey, it's a grassroots approach, what do we know? Okay, it's code for No executive buy-in. And so we need an early win that's really small scope we will take measurement of the baseline. We use the PS-index instrument to assess a piece of the organization could even be a single intact team.

0:12:50.2 Timothy Clark: That's right. It could.

0:12:51.1 Junior: As basically as you could do it, it could be a single intact team we take a pulse where are we at we get a PS-index score. Then we have some sort of intervention and we pilot whatever that grassroots approach is going to be. Maybe it could be as simple as an online course. It could be a half-day workshop. It could be any number of interventions.

0:13:13.5 Timothy Clark: With some action planning.

0:13:14.0 Junior: With some action planning.

0:13:16.9 Timothy Clark: And then we go to work.

0:13:19.2 Junior: Yep. So we have that intervention we do the action planning, it's most likely going to be 12 weeks and then we measure again. So we have T1. We have T2 and if we've done the right intervention with the action planning we'll have a delta for the better between those two measurement instances. Now you have something to go back with you can say, "Okay, here we were, here we are, this is what we did, this is how much it cost, and this is what was required in terms of logistics," and you have your whole plan, then you can set that on the table and say, "Hey, this is what we believe in. This was our hunch. We had a hypothesis, we tested it, this is the outcome. We would love to proceed with a little bit more scale on budget."

0:14:02.7 Timothy Clark: Junior executives don't use this language but let's speak in terms of research methodology for a minute. The executive is not going to get on board. One that is not on board. One that is questioning what we're doing here, the value of it, the ROI, why should we do this? That executive is not going to get on board until they see quantitative data that show impact and that show improvement. So in terms of research methodology. This is what we call pre-post experimental design. So as you said we get a baseline measure, we're using a psychometric scale that is valid, we have an intervention, we measure again and we can show improvement. So that pre-post experimental design is essential in order to put that in front of an executive and say, "Here's the impact this is what we need to do." Again, the executives are not gonna speak in those terms but you've got to be able to bring the data. Now, let me qualify this even more. Qualitative data alone is not going to the job done.

0:15:29.4 Timothy Clark: The qualitative data enhances the quantitative data it gives you the richness of understanding how and why and what's behind the what. But alone you're never gonna get there. We just need to be clear on that, the quantitative data is what makes the business case and then we go from there.

0:15:51.2 Junior: I'm glad you pointed that out because there have been many instances where I've seen grassroots approach and the design is pretty good but we're missing the quantitative element we get good qualitative feedback and then we're excited because we had a great outcome and then we go and pitch for more and we get nothing.

0:16:11.5 Timothy Clark: That's right.

0:16:14.5 Junior: And it gets shut down. And we're bewildered we say, "Look at the outcome, it was amazing, look at all of these responses and feedback that we got. Look at these endorsements." But it's not enough.

0:16:24.2 Timothy Clark: Well the executive sponsor is just gonna say that's anecdotal. So we have more important things to do.

0:16:32.8 Junior: Right. And I will also say a big piece of the reason that that quantitative measurement is so important up front is to establish the pain of a baseline. One of the most convincing things that you can do as an internal advocate who's trying to align a whole bunch of stakeholders and get budget to do some of these things, is to show the pain of the current state. You can't do that if you don't have quantitative evidence of how bad the current state is, but if you can go and say, okay our PS-index score or whatever you're using was this really problematic. It would stay the same if we had no intervention but we had the intervention and we were able to achieve this. The rest of the organization is still here and anecdotally we have reason to believe that it's really dysfunctional over here and here and here. We would love to go and measure to see what that baseline is. Okay, right now we're getting somewhere. You don't even have to pitch the whole initiative just say, "Can we please just go see what's going on and take the temperature and we'll come back to you with some data." That's an easier sell.

0:17:35.6 Timothy Clark: The other thing there's one alternative approach Junior. Kind of a variation on this and that is when you do your baseline if you do a broader baseline and you measure a number of teams before you do any intervention let alone a second measurement, if you show the local variants to the senior leadership it really gets their attention. Because they're seeing high-performing teams and very low performing teams they're seeing the whole range and that is an attention getter.

0:18:13.2 Junior: Yeah. Let's move to the next one. Opt-in or a la carte. This is a little bit different than grassroots we'll have organizations come to us and say, "We wanna put something into our LMS," or, "We wanna put up a sign-up sheet in our intranet that people can go and... "

0:18:32.3 Timothy Clark: Open enrollment.

0:18:33.0 Junior: "Fill out and just see if people wanna do this and then if we get enough sign-ups then we'll run the workshops or we'll do whatever it is that they're going to do." If you throw in just a menu of options for your people to choose from chances are you are not going to get the outcomes you want. We have seen this dozens and dozens of times anyone who comes in and says, "We wanna do a la carte. We wanna do opt-in?" We immediately push back because we've seen too much.

0:19:05.8 Timothy Clark: Yeah we have.

0:19:07.8 Junior: We've seen it fail too many times. This is why I think that this doesn't work if you make the training opt-in you imply that the behavior is opt-in too.

0:19:16.6 Timothy Clark: It's all discretionary.

0:19:18.5 Junior: If you say, "Hey, we're launching some psychological safety stuff and we think that it's important and if you wanna do it, that would be great."

0:19:30.9 Timothy Clark: Yeah.

0:19:31.0 Junior: To me, the messaging is the exact same about the behavior that you're expecting, "Hey, we would love if you behaved in a way that's psychologically safe, that would be great for the organization." So if you wanna do that, awesome, it's not gonna work.

0:19:47.8 Timothy Clark: It's not gonna work, it doesn't work. When you think about the way that you're conveying the value of that your commitment to that, it's totally discretionary. It's opt-in, it's an open enrollment, it's a nice to have thing versus a have to have thing. It's totally discretionary. Okay.

0:20:07.2 Junior: Not that there aren't some pieces of training that can fall into that bucket, but if your aim is real culture transformation or psychological safety, you can't afford to position that as a negotiable. As a volunteer issue. That's not going to cut it. So what's the solution? Broad, mandatory intervention with executive participation, this is what we need. If you're going to shift the norms of an entire organization, that can't be a voluntary proposition, that has to be mandatory and required, it has to have action planning attached, it has to have accountability, which we'll talk about later. But the participation cannot be optional. And then the executive participation, I added that because if you can get it, fantastic. If you can get endorsements from the top of the organization, if you can get a CEO like the one you mentioned, who says, "This is the priority."

0:21:08.0 Timothy Clark: This is happening.

0:21:09.1 Junior: "Everyone is going to be doing this, and there are accountability mechanisms to follow," you're gonna move way faster.

0:21:18.1 Timothy Clark: Let me say one other thing though. Junior, if you can't get the broad mandatory intervention, get the narrow mandatory intervention, find a part of the organization and do it. Right? But everyone's doing it in that localized area, wherever that is.

0:21:41.4 Junior: Yeah. Okay, here's the next one. Problem, build versus buy miscalculation. This is a big one.

0:21:49.6 Timothy Clark: It's a big one.

0:21:50.4 Junior: Many people underestimate the amount of resource necessary for effective instructional design, and not just instructional design, but all the logistics and all of the resources necessary to implement something effective.

0:22:04.2 Timothy Clark: Well, how about having a psychometrically, validated instrument to do the measurement with.

0:22:10.6 Junior: Well, to start, yeah, so we talk a lot.

0:22:12.0 Timothy Clark: It takes years.

0:22:12.9 Junior: We talk a lot about measurement. No, it's funny because people will say, "Well, why can't we just send out some questions in a survey."

0:22:20.7 Timothy Clark: Yeah.

0:22:22.2 Junior: Well, you can.

0:22:23.0 Timothy Clark: And they do routinely, they'll throw in a few questions into the annual or bi-annual employee engagement survey, and they'll get a little bit.

0:22:33.2 Junior: Yeah, and you might be able to take temperature a little bit and see, okay, we have an issue, but then you have to talk about, well, and it also depends on the organization. Many organizations that come to us are quite large, and then we'll ask about translation. Right, okay. Do we have translation for all of these items? Is it validated? No. Okay, well then what... What if you get pressed on that issue by someone who really understands. Well, you're up a creek and if you don't have the sub-scales for these different pieces of that survey, how are you gonna be able to point to any intervention at that point? Where is your real failure? Because most of those instruments will just tell you, "Well, you've got a general issue."

0:23:21.2 Timothy Clark: Yeah.

0:23:21.4 Junior: Okay, but what do we do about that general issue, a general solution, which is probably not going to work because there are quite specific problems that require specific intervention.

0:23:31.0 Timothy Clark: That's right.

0:23:32.3 Junior: And so, yes, that a survey is just one example, if you can go and try and do that, let's talk about training. Some people will say, and we've heard this many times, "Well, we've got about 5,000 leaders that we wanna move through this training." Right? "Okay, great. How big is your stable of facilitators?" "Well, there's three of us." "Okay, and you want it to be how long?" "Well it's very important to us that it's a full day." "Okay, and where do those groups exist?" "Well, we've got... We're predominantly North America, but we've got a pretty big APAC region, and then we've got South America too." "Okay, and you want all this to be on-site trainings?" "Yes." And very quickly, "Okay, well, we're gonna need about 10 times that number of facilitators and you're gonna need a lot of travel and you're gonna need a lot of time and budget and all of these things," and so if you just look logistically, realistically at what's required to do some of this training, you're going to either do two things, you're gonna staff up to make sure that you're well equipped to do this, or you're gonna change the scope of the initiative and you're gonna start narrow.

0:24:42.8 Timothy Clark: Narrow.

0:24:43.8 Junior: Because what you don't wanna do is make a build versus buy miscalculation, say that we're going to build, and then set off on an impossible journey that you then have to account for with your executive sponsor. And you're gonna have to come back and say, "We're working on it, we're working on it, we're making progress, but it's a really big issue," and so on and so forth, and then you can never provide the results, that is the whole point.

0:25:11.6 Timothy Clark: That's right. You're gonna fall short and there's no recourse.

0:25:14.9 Junior: We are also not saying that you should go and buy everything, there are some things that you should build, let's say that there's something that's super custom, that is, you have to culturally account for some geography, something. Maybe there's a specific instance there, you should build. It's not always buy, but sometimes it is. And many organizations, and again, this is just coming from experience and observation will show up at the leader factor door and say, "Hey, we tried to build. And it didn't work. So now we're here."

0:25:43.8 Timothy Clark: That's right. And it's not psychological safety's fault if you took the wrong approach.

0:25:48.5 Junior: Yeah.

0:25:49.0 Timothy Clark: It's still a priority.

0:25:49.8 Junior: Yeah, be realistic. That's the solution, it seems on the nose, it is. You need to take time to really come to terms with the reality of the situation, you have to look at your budget, your time allotment your other priorities, because often, it is funny because often someone will be tasked with culture transformation and do that in 15% of your time. Right.

0:26:11.6 Timothy Clark: It's right.

0:26:12.3 Junior: Not gonna work. Okay, let's go to the next one. Content issues, this is something that we see pretty frequently, where we have the logistics, we have everything else right, but we chose the wrong content. Have you ever seen this?

0:26:27.6 Timothy Clark: Happens a lot.

0:26:27.7 Junior: It happens a lot. So the content issue, you have to look holistically at the problem and make sure that the content you're implementing in the intervention is well matched. If you're off base and it's completely left field to what the issue actually is, this is a problem. Now, the content issue is almost secondary because we often haven't done the preliminary work of measuring and figuring out what the problem really is. So it'll show up as a content issue, but often it's a preparatory issue when we haven't done our due diligence to figure out what it is that the content really should be.

0:27:02.0 Timothy Clark: A lot of times what we see here, junior, is that for content, I see this a lot where internally, people will do a tour of the topic and they'll bring in a lot of different elements. And it's kind of a synthesis of a lot of stuff that's out there, but it's not the right way to teach psychological safety as an applied discipline and actually transform the culture. It's really more of a... We went on a little tour of the topic. It was kind of a salad bar approach, so it was more about awareness and understanding, but we're really not getting into how do we actually transform the prevailing norms of this organization.

0:28:00.0 Junior: Yeah. And often, it's usually well-intended, you'll have a training group and they'll go out, they'll gather content. But it's often jargon or it's academic in a way that is not practical for the layman or anyone who's just outside of that niche. And so choosing language inside that content, it's appropriate is really important. So our solution, common scalable language, you'll notice that leader factor. When we define terms, we do so as simply as we possibly can. What is culture? The way we interact. What is psychological safety? A culture of rewarded vulnerability. We use what's EQ? The ability to interact effectively with other humans. We're not gonna use long and clinical definitions because that hurts the scalability of the content when we get into an institution and we're talking about rewarded and punished vulnerability. What do we use? Red Zone. Blue Zone, red, bad, blue, good. It needs to be stupid simple, so that it can scale. It won't if it's too complicated, so what we have here, whatever you think is simple enough, simplify it, another 50%.

0:29:09.1 Timothy Clark: Well, junior, as we say, the standard of communication is to make it impossible to misunderstand. Think about how difficult it is to align a large, complex organization. Alignment means two things. Number one, shared understanding. Number two, shared commitment. Think about the burden that alignment implies. It's massive. And so as you say the language has to be tight, it has to be clear, it has to be scalable.

0:29:47.0 Junior: Yeah. When you're talking about psychological safety to an executive sponsor as an example, some people will say psychosocial risk, right? Technically true.

0:29:57.3 Timothy Clark: Technically true.

0:29:58.4 Junior: Practically not helpful.

0:30:00.4 Timothy Clark: Yep.

0:30:01.8 Junior: Okay, let's go to the last one. This is the worst of all of them. The biggest problem that we see always, forever is no follow through. The lack of action planning, lack of behavior change, because there's no accountability mechanism past the original launch of the content, many of the programs that we see that fail are tuned toward awareness. We're just gonna send out a big communication, some generalized training, a tour, as you said, to get exposure to the concept, but that's it. If you don't have the follow-through, you're not going to move the organization, especially if it's large and complex, you're dealing with the behavior of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of people. You can't do it if it's just awareness, especially you start stacking some of these problems you're like, "Well, it's home grown, it's opt-in, it's grassroots, there's no action planning, and there's no accountability mechanism."

0:31:01.3 Timothy Clark: Oh, dead on arrival. Now you used a key term junior, which is behavior. The intervention. We have seen this over and over and over again. I cannot stress this enough. The action planning, which is the intervention has to go down to the behavioral level. I need to know what I start doing, what I stop doing, and what I continue doing at a behavioral level. If I don't understand that, if I don't plan that... If my action plan does not include specific concrete behaviors that I need to do, we are not going to get there. This is how we shift the prevailing norms of an organization, this is how we move to a culture of rewarded vulnerability. So yes, the training will have components to increase understanding and awareness and appreciation, the educational side of this, which is very, very important. And it also gives us the deep why about doing this, the rationale behind it. Why are we doing this? That's very, very important. But when we get to the intervention, it's gotta go down to the ground, which is the behavioral level, and then we practice, and we practice and we practice, and lo and behold, we are making measurable progress and we're able to measure that.

0:32:43.1 Junior: So let's go ahead and summarize. Organizations want inclusive, innovative organizations, and they try to get those through cultural transformations that are focused on psychological safety. They run into some issues. The top problems that we see are these; lack of executive buy-in, grassroots approach, opt-in, bill versus buy miscalculation, content issues and no follow-through. So if you're gonna start on this journey, here's what you should do, build executive buy-in, have quantitative and qualitative measurement, broad mandatory intervention with the executive participation, if you can get it. You need to be realistic, you need common scalable language and you need longitudinal cultural accountability mechanisms. This last solution to that last problem is very important, hiring, firing and promotion must be influenced by whatever it is that you're doing, is it really important to the organization or is it not? That is the interface that that question's answer lives at. That was a bad sentence, but that's where it lives.

0:33:53.2 Timothy Clark: That's true.

0:33:54.6 Junior: Hiring, firing and promotion, if it doesn't make it to that level, you're not gonna achieve the culture transfer direction you're looking for.

0:34:01.1 Timothy Clark: You can't say it's a cultural, you can't say it is an organizational priority, if it does not affect those decisions.

0:34:08.7 Junior: Yeah. So Tim, as we wrap up, what are your final thoughts today.

0:34:13.6 Timothy Clark: These are the failure patterns and the success patterns that we have seen across industry lines with a variety of organizations for several years, and I think the findings are very, very valuable. And so I hope that for all of the HR professionals, L&D, talent management, OD, OB professionals out there, I hope that you're able to take some practical value from this episode.

0:34:41.4 Junior: Yeah. If you need any additional help, don't hesitate to reach out, that's what we're here for. Both in the podcast, the leader factor, and as a business is what we do every single day, so if you liked the episode, please let us know what it was that you liked in the comments below, be sure to like. Be sure to subscribe. And with that, we will see you in the next episode. Take care, everybody bye-bye.

0:35:12.3 Jillian: Hey, leader factor listeners, it's Jillian. If you liked the content in today's episode, we've compiled all of the concepts and slides into a downloadable resource for you, click the link in the description or visit leaderfactor.com to explore our full content library. Don't forget to subscribe. And we'll catch you in the next episode.

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