0:00:00.0 Jillian: Welcome back Culture by Design listeners, it's Jillian one of the producers of the podcast. This week, our host, Tim and Junior, are talking about the limitations of a traditional for competency emotional intelligence model, why? Because leader factors, private Emotional Intelligence Assessment, EQ index is now publicly available, this assessment and its Leadership 360 version is based on a six domain 30 skill model that measures what we believe, what we know and what we do as we interact with others. If you are wanting to know what the future of emotional intelligence looks like in 2024, this would be the episode to listen to, speaking of the future of emotional intelligence, thank you to everyone who joined us for last week's webinar, if you participated, this is your reminder that today is your last chance to claim your free gift at leaderfactor.com/free, and if you didn't make it to the event and happened to be listening to this episode on the date was released, you might as well click that link too. As always, you can find important links from the episode as well as transcripts and show notes on our website at leaderfactor.com/podcast, enjoy today's episode on the six domains of emotional intelligence. Believe, know and do.
0:01:21.7 Junior: Welcome back, everyone to Culture by Design. I'm Junior here with my co-host, Dr. Tim Clark, and today we'll be discussing the order of the EQ index model, and why that order is important, is it. Know, believe, do. Do, know, believe. Believe, do, know. Have you ever thought about that? You probably should. It's important. We're gonna talk through today, Tim, how you doing?
0:01:41.3 Tim Clark: Doing great, but I just can't help but think that the topic may sound boring at first.
0:01:47.3 Junior: I know I'm trying to breath some energy into it on the front end.
0:01:51.2 Tim Clark: Yeah, the order of the domains in the EQ index model, how we conceptualize Emotional Intelligence. Oh wow. That sounds exciting.
0:02:04.6 Junior: Don't click away.
0:02:06.3 Tim Clark: I think it's going to be a little bit of a sleeper episode, I think people are going to find it a lot more relevant than you might at first anticipate. So hang with us.
0:02:18.1 Junior: I agree. Stick around. We published our EQ series not too long ago. If you remember that, and we hinted at an assessment that we would be releasing to the public. Well, it's now live. You may have joined us at the launch webinar in recent days, if you did, thank you very much. We had a great turnout, very global, and the response was overwhelmingly positive in part, because we presented a pretty cool offer in the webinar we gave everyone a special opportunity, everyone on the Webinar was able to take EQ index, free, absolutely free. The entire assessment and all of the training that goes along with it, all of the action planning for free, and we wanna offer our podcast listeners the same thing. We appreciate you, so if you're listening to this, we invite you to take the newly released EQ index, we'll go ahead and put the instructions in the show notes, we do appreciate your listenership very much, and we hope that you will find this assessment and then the training that accompanies it very valuable. Tim I think that's a pretty good offer. What do you think?
0:03:24.4 Tim Clark: We need to clarify, it's not an abbreviated version, it's not some kinda water down version, it is the official version, of the assessment that we're offering, so. That's a pretty good offer.
0:03:38.4 Junior: It's pretty good. Take some time today, tomorrow the next day, take it, would be interested in your feedback. So today, we'll be spending a little bit of time on why the EQ index model, the model we use in the assessment is laid out the way that it is, and the order of the domains we call them is intentional, and this isn't something we've ever talked about publicly before, and we thought it was worth a conversation, we were having a discussion about it recently and thought, Hey, you know what, maybe we do a podcast episode on this because it's, pretty interesting.
0:04:11.7 Tim Clark: Yeah, it is.
0:04:11.8 Junior: There are compelling things inside, I'm fascinated by this topic, so if you've taken the assessment before, maybe some of you are on the webinar and you've already taken it, you remember that on the main reporting page there's a visual, that shows all of your scores by domain laid out in a 2 x 3 grid that shows the EQ index model, so there's two columns, three rows, in the columns we have two descriptors internal and external, and then in the rows, we have the three companion competencies in a certain order.
0:04:41.7 Junior: So we're gonna dive into that order today, but we wanna start with some context in defining emotional intelligence, so Tim, can you walk us through what is emotional intelligence? And second question, why is it important?
0:04:54.3 Tim Clark: Sure. We define it, in a very simple way the ability to interact effectively with other humans. Now, there are, of course, many other definitions that are long and academic and clinical, but they don't really provide any more clarity, the essence of the concept is that we're trying to become more effective as we interact with other people, and as humans, we are biologically, emotionally, socially spiritually, we are wired to connect. We're relational creatures, we're social creatures, we are emotional creatures, so the way that we interact, the effectiveness with which we interact with each other is very important, that's the essence of Emotional Intelligence. Another way to put it is to say that emotional intelligence is your delivery system, it delivers who you are to other people, and I also think about in a work setting it delivers your competence, your skills, your experience, your knowledge. So you have all of this value to provide based on your knowledge and skills and experience, but you need a delivery system in order to.
0:06:16.5 Tim Clark: Deliver it, and that's what your emotional intelligence is, it is the conduit of your influence to other people. That's the way we look at it.
0:06:27.5 Junior: I really like the way that you describe delivery system, because for me, another way that I like to think about this is as software versus hardware, to think about emotional intelligence as our soft operating system, you can have great hardware, let's say your hardware is your intellect, your skills, but if you can't moderate and govern those things in the context of interacting with other people, you're not gonna do well.
0:06:58.7 Tim Clark: No.
0:07:00.9 Junior: And so for me, maybe other people too, this idea of hardware software, I love. Another reason I think I love it so much is that we're constantly shipping software updates all the time.
0:07:11.6 Tim Clark: Yeah.
0:07:12.9 Junior: Even though the hardware is not changing.
0:07:15.3 Tim Clark: That's a good point.
0:07:16.1 Junior: Your intellect is baked, it's pretty much done, it is what it is, but the effectiveness in which you utilize that hard skill, the hard intellect will depend upon your software, and the way that it interacts with other things as it relates to you, and as it relates to other people. I really like that description.
0:07:38.1 Tim Clark: Yeah. The premise of emotional intelligence and why we spend time on it and why we think, it matters the premise is that. I'll put it this way, do you put a bunch of geniuses together in a room and say, you are now a team, what's going to happen?
0:08:00.6 Junior: Best team ever.
0:08:02.0 Tim Clark: Are they going to innovate? Are they going to produce amazing things? Are they going to make breakthroughs, are they going to solve difficult problems? We don't know. They won't necessarily. They might perform, but they might not perform right, Junior? Is that true?
0:08:22.4 Junior: Yeah, they often won't, and they might predictably not perform, because there are some things that we see as patterns that come along with a genius category, an expert category, there are some liabilities that come along with that, not necessarily, but as a pattern, right?
0:08:44.0 Tim Clark: Yeah.
0:08:44.1 Junior: And so maybe the hardware is really good, but the software is under-developed, and we have a hard time.
0:08:50.8 Tim Clark: Yeah, so as an individual, when the individual is the unit of performance, that's great, and you may be a genius by yourself, but once you come together with other people and you have a team and the team becomes the unit of performance, then the team is only as good as the members are able to work together, because they need to link brains, they need to work together, their performance as a team becomes a function of their neuroplasticity as a unit, that's why, emotional intelligence is so important.
0:09:27.1 Junior: And another consideration is the fact that it's not binary, there's a spectrum of interpersonal competence as a spectrum of EQ, you can be really good, you can be really bad, and you can be somewhere in the middle, and this is relevant, probably obviously not just for professional settings, but for life generally, anywhere. There's more than one human, there is a need for emotional intelligence. And we've spoken previously about the fact that EQ conceptually was traditionally considered a four-competency model, that considered two domains, awareness in behavior, so to walk us through that traditional model.
0:10:06.9 Tim Clark: Sure. Let's review that traditional model, the first distinction is the understanding that with an emotional intelligence, there's an inner sphere and an outer sphere, so if we say this is a different way, there's a personal sphere, and there's a social sphere, what's going on inside of you and then what's going on outside of you? Those two spheres together constitute emotional intelligence. Now the traditional model begins with the domain of awareness, and then what we do is we split that domain into two parts, we have inside and outside, or in this case we have, self-awareness and we have social awareness. These are the two domains that represent what we know about ourselves and what we know about others, based on awareness, then we add a second domain to the traditional model, and it's about management. Again, we split the domain into inside and outside, so we have self-management, which includes self-control and self-regulation part of the same domain, and then the other side is social management, but of course we don't control or regulate other people, we influence other people, both of these domains self and social management, represent our behavior, or what we do.
0:11:32.9 Tim Clark: So that. Let me summarize. The awareness domains are about what we perceive and know, the management domains are about our behavior, our actions, what we do. So again, we have these four traditional domains of the emotional intelligence, self and social awareness, as well as self and social management, what we know about ourselves and others, and then how we manage ourselves and influence others, that model has been the primary model all around the world for more than, 30 years, Junior. 30 years, more than 30 years. It's been around.
0:12:15.8 Junior: Well and we know EQ is an assessment-heavy niche. Very assessment-heavy. When you think about emotional intelligence, you often think about assessment, and so the assessments that have been on the market for those 30 years have been based on that model, awareness and management. That model is broken. That model is deficient. Why? Because it doesn't consider motivation and intent, so here's a simple question that I would pose to everyone listening, how important do you think motivation and intent are as it relates to interacting with other people? Important, non-important. Irrelevant. Necessary. Chances are, you'd all say very important, crucial. How in the world does a conceptual model attempting to explain human interaction not consider motivation or intent? To me, that's crazy. It's beyond me, I don't understand.
0:13:14.0 Tim Clark: I was gonna say that we miss something, and it's not small.
0:13:19.4 Junior: We missed something.
0:13:20.3 Tim Clark: It's a big gap in the conceptual model.
0:13:22.5 Junior: So there's a big gap in the conceptual model, we missed something. EQ index introduces the regard competencies to solve this problem self and social regard what you believe about yourself, what you believe about others. Instead of four domains, we have six, and those categories are no longer just awareness and management, but regard.
0:13:50.4 Junior: Awareness and management. Now we're left with this. We have this in our opinion, fact that a conceptually accurate EQ model should consider our beliefs, our perceptions and our behavior, agreed? And should those three categories be in any particular order? Now, this is the question for the basis of the episode, and we think it's a very worthwhile question, 'cause you could put them in a few different orders, and there are some reasons that you might put them in one order or another, there are some arguments that could go several different ways, but our view is that they should go very importantly, in one particular order, so what are the questions we might ask to find out what that order should be? Well you start with a question like, what's the relationship between the domains? Which domains, if any, precede the others, are there any causal relationships between the domains? Here are some things that we've thought about. Behavior seems to logically be last, you don't behave without something else happening beforehand, either consciously or subconsciously, something has to precede, behavior. What do you think about that? Is that fair?
0:15:10.3 Tim Clark: No, I totally agree with that. I think Junior, that one is probably beyond question.
0:15:16.4 Junior: It seems self evident.
0:15:17.2 Tim Clark: Yeah, there's a consensus view here because behavior is symptomatic, that's the view that most people throughout psychology have taken. Behavior comes last.
0:15:29.0 Junior: So if behavior is symptomatic, if it's an outcome, something must have spurred the behavior, what is the cause? So that leaves us with behavior clearly in third, with awareness and beliefs remaining, so where do those go? And this is the crux of the conversation. Let's look at the relationship between those two domains. Our beliefs more a function of our awareness and perception, or is our awareness and perception more a function of our beliefs, is there a natural order? If we're gonna answer this question, we've gotta unpack it, it's gonna require some detail, it's gonna require some exploration, and that's what we're gonna do. So let's start with this perception can influence beliefs, I don't think anyone's gonna argue with this new experiences, new sensory input, it can challenge our existing beliefs, and it can lead us to revise those beliefs. If you always believe the earth was flat, but then you saw evidence of its curvature during a space flight, your perception would probably change and your belief might adapt accordingly.
0:16:39.3 Tim Clark: Yeah.
0:16:39.7 Junior: And there are a lot of examples of this, but the important question, how many times have you seen someone double down on something illogical when there was plenty of evidence to the contrary? You ever seen this?
0:16:51.3 Tim Clark: Yeah, good point, Junior, good point.
0:16:53.3 Junior: Well, have you ever seen this?
0:16:54.7 Tim Clark: Yes, all the time.
0:16:56.4 Junior: In coaching, in leadership, in life?
0:16:58.7 Tim Clark: All the time.
0:16:58.8 Junior: All the time.
0:17:00.4 Tim Clark: Yeah.
0:17:01.9 Junior: All the time. And this is where that question becomes really interesting, and now we go the other way, beliefs versus perception. Beliefs can influence perception. Our existing beliefs act like lenses through which we interpret the world and we tend to pay more attention to information that confirms our beliefs, and we tend to filter out or we discount information that contradicts those beliefs, but this has some risk, doesn't it?
0:17:30.9 Tim Clark: It does, but I think that the way that you've laid this out, Junior is very persuasive, so you've made the case that, the perception can influence beliefs, and clearly it can.
0:17:47.4 Junior: Of course.
0:17:48.8 Tim Clark: And you gave a really good example. But the question is, which way does the cause and effect arrow go most of the time? And I think it's pretty clear that beliefs influence perceptions more often than perceptions influence beliefs, that's the causal arrow moving in that direction more often that way.
0:18:09.8 Junior: And one of the caveats to this is we're trying to approach this from a practical perspective, and we understand in the literal sense that awareness information precedes this in the sense that, one day you know nothing and one day you know some things. And you're not going to behave or believe until you have some of that information, but we're assuming you're an adult, you've gone through some of that preceding awareness, and now we're left with how do we engage with the world, so with our beliefs affecting our awareness this presents risk, it can lead to confirmation bias, where we unknowingly seek out or unwittingly seek out evidence that supports our existing views.
0:19:02.0 Junior: Selective attention is a topic that I have found to be completely riveting, so if you wanna go do some outside reading, we will link quite a few resources in the show notes this episode because our topic today covers a lot of ground and we've pulled from a lot of different places, but the idea of selective attention is that we naturally focus on information that aligns with our beliefs, and we filter out or we downplay things that contradict them, so this is driven by a combination of brain activity and cognitive processes, so a very simple example, imagine you're walking down the street and there's a lot going on, there's cars, their street lights, there's birds in the sky, a whole bunch of noise, you can't possibly pay attention to everything.
0:19:51.8 Junior: Your brain filters out most of what's going on, filters out most of the information, this is selective attention. But now the belief part becomes really interesting because that filter mechanism is informed by what we deem as important, so what determines what's important? Our beliefs determine what's important. Pretty early on in this process, we can see that our beliefs are affecting the filter by which we, in an almost literal sense, perceive and an almost biological sense, perceive.
0:20:31.3 Tim Clark: Junior I'll add to that. We're talking about, the causal relationship between beliefs and perception, we stipulate to the fact that it does go in both directions, there's reciprocal causation, but there's more causation running from beliefs to perception now, is that just our conclusion? No, we're calling on a lot of research from cognitive and social psychology, and we'll get into this a little bit, the point is that we refract reality through the prism of our beliefs, that means we interpret things, based on what we already believe, we have a moral, and normative infrastructure that we use for sense-making in social psychology, for example, we call the social cognition, which is about how we come to believe what we do. And then how beliefs and new information and facts interact, sometimes we become immune to new facts. Think about this, sometimes we reject new facts, we twist them, or maybe we partially believe them. The novelist Anais Nin said, "We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are." Now, there's a famous book, Junior that came out. Oh, man, it's been over 50 years ago, it's called, The Nature of prejudice, and it was written by a Harvard psychologist called Gordon Alport, and it's the seminal work in this area of prejudice, and this is what he said, "A deeply prejudiced person is virtually immune to information at variance with his or her cherished stereotype."
0:22:32.3 Tim Clark: Now, think about that, virtually immune to information at variance with his or her cherished stereotype. The point is that beliefs, which includes stereotypes, what is a stereotype, it's a belief, you've come to the conclusion about categorizing or characterizing something or someone. The point is that, that belief has a direct impact on your cognition and your perception, so the belief comes first, and then the cognition and the perception comes second. That's the causal sequence. Isn't that amazing?
0:23:17.9 Junior: It is, and it's interesting to me the way that they dance together, these domains, so if you were to say, here is a deeply prejudiced person based on the quote and based on the research, what's going to be my approach, is my approach going to be this deluge of information to this person to present the facts?
0:23:43.2 Tim Clark: Yeah.
0:23:43.2 Junior: No.
0:23:44.4 Tim Clark: You'll overwhelm with evidence.
0:23:46.3 Junior: Yeah.
0:23:47.7 Tim Clark: And then they'll start to see it clearly, finally.
0:23:50.6 Junior: Horribly wrong. How many times is that gone well for you?
0:23:55.1 Tim Clark: Yeah.
0:23:55.6 Junior: How many times has it gone well for me? And, I need to present this piece of information, but I love the words virtually immune, to information at variance with his or her cherished stereotype. So it's a fool's errand.
0:24:11.5 Tim Clark: Yeah.
0:24:11.8 Junior: To show up to someone that is, may be deeply prejudiced or hold some belief, just deer and say. Here's information at variance with your beliefs, please believe it. And so if we know that that's not going to work and we can't move from awareness to believes. Then where do we start? We've had fascinating conversations in the past about engaging our hands as well, so maybe there's this behavior component that will subsequently affect our belief system, which will then allow us to perceive different things, and so, it's not completely linear. There's a linear pattern, but the way that these things interact to me is fascinating, and there's a paper called selective attention from theoretical models to brain mechanisms by Michael Posner, in '94. Highly recommend that you go and read that paper, it'll help you understand a little bit of this better.
0:25:13.7 Junior: Then confirmation bias I've been thinking about this too, we actively seek out. Actively seek out and interpret information in a way that confirms our existing beliefs, which leads to what blind spots missed opportunities. If you think about the way that we consume information, and you think about how we are incentivized algorithmically to consume certain information, what are we gonna consume more of, information that confirms our world view, or that is at odds with our world view.
0:25:48.8 Junior: Yeah.
0:25:49.3 Junior: If the market is paid when we pay attention, what will the market feed us? That's an interesting question, information that confirms our existing beliefs, and so what does this have to do? This is not a political or social commentary, this is a leadership commentary. What does this have to do with leadership? Think about the information that you're exposed to day today, what might you be missing because of these mechanisms, now, these mechanisms are natural, there's nothing inherently bad or good about these biological mechanisms, but there are risks that present themselves because of these mechanisms that we need to be aware of and we need to actively combat. We could take this conversation in a whole bunch of different directions, one of those directions could be, why do we not solicit information from diverse perspectives that might be at odds with our world view, why don't we do that more often? We probably should.
0:26:52.2 Junior: So there are some things that we can do to combat that confirmation bias, but if we come from the lease to awareness, you can see some of those things at play, then we have schema theory, this one's interesting too. These are mental frameworks that we build based on past experiences and beliefs, those past experiences and beliefs now influence how we organize and interpret new information. That seems obvious. But it's very important. What can this do? What's the risk here? This can lead to stereotyping and, misjudgments when encountered with something outside our pre-existing schema. Okay, not compatible with the schema, it's gonna fit into this box over here and we're going to disregard it, or we're going to miss judge it, or we're going to stereotype. And that mechanism by which we're making sense of the world is natural, but it can be risky.
0:27:46.3 Tim Clark: Well Junior, it makes me think that we become our own echo chamber.
0:27:51.0 Junior: Yeah.
0:27:52.1 Tim Clark: If we keep doing this.
0:27:54.5 Junior: Yep.
0:27:54.7 Tim Clark: We develop our own group think within ourselves, and then we can see, and then that perpetuates and is reinforced if we find affinity with people who are like us or agree with us, and that's our exclusive pattern in the way that we interact with others, think about the liability associated with that, we're not bringing in new information, we are disregarding information views, opinions, attitudes, perceptions that disagree with or firmly entrenched views about things that become so dangerous. It makes me think, Junior, if you go back to the five key personality attributes, openness is one of those, being open-minded, and how our patterns over time will reinforce closed-mindedness or open-mindedness based on what we're doing, who we're speaking with, what we exposures to, what sources of information we consult, all of those things have a direct and a cumulative impact on our overall openness.
0:29:10.7 Junior: I like that you said cumulative impact, because that comes from some of the schema theory, that the farther we are down the road, the more experience we've had, the more entrenched the schema become.
0:29:23.9 Tim Clark: Yeah.
0:29:24.2 Junior: And it becomes pretty difficult to break out of those. And so in order to break out of those often, it requires a lot of energy and a lot of awareness, which is another interesting play, because it requires awareness for us to see that our beliefs may not be what they might be, to be more useful to us and to other people, here's another one, priming. This is subconscious exposure to concepts or ideas that can then suddenly influence our perception of subsequent information, making it more likely to align with the prime whatever we were exposed to first, and so is slightly different from schema theory in that this can be very subtle.
0:30:10.1 Junior: If you think about the environment around you, the people around you, all of that influences the way that we will perceive subsequent information, so the socialization that we go through when we're young affects the future. The first job we ever have, and the patterns that we see when we get there affect the future. So all of these things around us are priming us for future interactions, so that we can more quickly deal with them. It's a cognitive shortcut in some sense, but then how do these things play out confirmation by a schema theory and priming, while social perception, maybe we judge people based on stereotypes associated with the race or their gender or their socioeconomic background, even if those stereotypes are inaccurate, we see that all the time, political bias, individuals on opposite sides of the political spectrum can interpret the same news event in vastly different ways.
0:31:12.8 Junior: We see that every single day. Don't we?
0:31:16.1 Tim Clark: It's unbelievable. It's everywhere around us.
0:31:18.5 Junior: Yeah, are we talking about the same thing?
0:31:21.1 Tim Clark: Yeah, and the bias seems to become exacerbated and people seem to polarize even more and go to extreme positions, and then attack each other with even more acrimony, and we're seeing that, so you can see exactly what's happening instead of. No, let's try to understand each other and let's show kindness and respect for each other, so let's come together instead of doing that they're growing further apart. We see that.
0:31:53.1 Junior: Yeah, and lastly, self-fulfilling prophecies, is an interesting one. Our beliefs about ourselves can influence our behavior and what we do, if you believe that you're bad at math, you might perform poorly on a math test and reinforce the negative belief, and then you're worse at math and then you perform worse and so on and so forth. And now we've fulfilled this prophecy that we made about ourselves. All of these things point to the idea or maybe the fact that our beliefs influence our awareness and our beliefs influence our behavior. So what is farthest upstream?
0:32:45.0 Junior: Now, we can go on and on about the nuance, but practically speaking, to me it seems very clear that our beliefs, if they affect our perception so much, which we know they do, it would have to precede awareness. First we have beliefs, then we have awareness, and then we have behavior, how confident are you that that's the right order? Or what other things what might we think about?
0:33:17.5 Tim Clark: Junior hers is the way that I would summarize it. And for all listeners, this matters so much, and it will come to life for you, when you take EQ-index, which we're inviting you to do at no charge for this episode, it will come to life for you because what we're talking about is what we might call. So there's all kinds of reciprocating influence and causation going on in every direction among beliefs and perceptions and behavior, but what we're saying is that this is the dominant, linear causal pathway. Now, that's a mouthful. Let me say that again, it's the dominant linear causal pathway. This is the way that most of the cause and effect traffic runs, this is the way that those street lights run. That's what we're saying now, is it the only way? Doesn't influence come back? Yes, it does. We acknowledge that, but it's very important to understand the dominant flow and Junior. Well done, you've summarized that very well and give some great examples.
0:34:40.9 Junior: Let's see if we can reduce it down to a summary that we can take away today. So first, we talked about the fact that a conceptually accurate EQ model should consider beliefs, perceptions and behavior in that order. The way we see the world is influenced by or may be dictated by our beliefs in order to become more interpersonally effective, what do we need to do we should examine. Everyone listening should examine what we believe about ourselves, what we believe about others, and simultaneously implement behaviors that reinforce regard for ourselves and others, there's this behavioral component that should come early, we should behave until we believe. We've talked about that before. As we do this, we'll develop a more sophisticated and mature soft operating system, our EQ will improve, which will enable us to govern and moderate all of our hard skills to work well with other people, so this will allow us to become more interpersonally effective, and I'm glad that you mentioned the assessment again, because this thing is $250 MSRP, and we could have discounted it even by half, and that would have been good, but we really do want this to help.
0:36:05.6 Junior: We want everyone listening to this podcast to improve. We want to improve ourselves, to us, it's much more than a money grab, we want people to become better leaders, and so we wanna make that easier for you to do and hope that you will take the assessment. Tim, any final thoughts?
0:36:23.3 Tim Clark: Well and I also want to say just great job to you and the product team, the data visualization and EQ-index is absolutely phenomenal. It's next level. So for listeners who take it, I think you're going to be wowed by what you see and the results that you get, and you're gonna get actionable insights that you can take with you and apply immediately for value and impact. So I'm excited for you to have that opportunity.
0:36:53.3 Junior: Yeah, well Tim, thanks for the conversation today. To everyone listening. Thank you for your time, your attention. We appreciate your listenership very much, if you liked today's episode, please leave us a review, and share with a friend, do not forget the link in the show notes take EQ-index today, see where you're at, take the next step in your development journey. And don't miss some of the resources that we link down there in the show notes, some of these papers and some of these books from which we pull some ideas for today's conversation, so with that, we will say goodbye. And we'll see you next episode. Take care. [
0:37:35.6 Junior: Hey, Culture by Design listeners, this is the end of today's episode. You can find all the important links from today's episode at leaderfactor.com/podcast. And if you found today's episode helpful and useful in any way, please share it with a friend and leave a review. If you'd like to learn more about leader factor and what we do, then please visit us at leaderfactor.com. Lastly if you'd like to give any feedback to the Culture by Design podcast or even request a topic from Tim and Junior then reach out to us @info@leaderfactor.com or find and tag us on LinkedIn. Thanks again for listening and making culture something you do by design not by default.
