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0:00:02.9 Freddy: Welcome back Culture by Design listeners. It's Freddy, one of the producers of the podcast. In today's episode, Tim and Junior are covering the topic what is emotional intelligence? This will kick off a new series surrounding emotional intelligence, and I think you are absolutely going to love it. Like psychological safety, we have our own unique take and our own definition of emotional intelligence that helps us get practical and actionable about the subject. And coming next year, the beginning of 2024, we will be taking our own emotional intelligence assessment, that's our own proprietary assessment, the one we have been using over the last 10 years with our clients and making it publicly available for individuals and teams. So I hope that gets you a little bit excited and interested in what Tim and Junior are about to say in today's episode. They'll discuss emotional intelligence, some of the definitions that are out there. They'll talk about the most popular models that exist, and even discuss the most common critique of emotional intelligence. You might even walk away with a new, more practical definition of emotional intelligence. As always, this episode's show notes can be found at leaderfactor.com/podcast. That includes the EQ resources that Junior will mention in this episode. Thanks again for listening and enjoy today's episode on what is emotional intelligence.

0:01:34.0 Junior: Welcome back, everyone, to Culture by Design. My name is Junior. I'm here with Dr. Tim Clark, and today we'll be discussing emotional intelligence. Our approach to EQ is different. There's the mainstream idea of EQ and then there's ours. We'll be spending the next several episodes diving into EQ and talking about what it is, what it isn't, and why most people and most organizations get it wrong. You may not know that LeaderFactor started its EQ work almost 10 years ago. And over the next few weeks, we're going to be giving you a peek behind the curtain and letting you in on what we've been doing with our clients in the realm of EQ for several years. So, Tim, how are you and what do you think about this topic?

0:02:17.3 Tim: Well, I'm doing great, and I'm excited to launch into EQ, not just this episode, but the series that comes after. Well, this will be the kickoff to the series. We have some pretty incredible stuff to share, so I'm excited to jump into it.

0:02:33.2 Junior: Yeah, today we're going to be talking about what emotional intelligence is, a very appropriate kickoff. So where are we going today? I'll start with the ending. We have an emotional intelligence assessment called EQ Index that we use with our clients that we're going to be opening to the public in the coming weeks. That's why we're doing this series. We've been hard at work on a new version, and it's different than anything you've seen, and in our humble opinion, it is the best out there by a mile. So if you want to try it out in the coming days, the full assessment will address how to do that at the end of the episode. But let's back up first. Before we get there, we need to tackle what EQ is and why the traditional approach to EQ is very importantly deficient, and what we need to do to fix it. So let's jump into this first question. What is emotional intelligence? If you just go and Google it, you'll get something like this, the ability to understand, manage, and use your own emotions in positive ways to relieve stress, communicate effectively, empathize with others, overcome challenges and diffuse conflict. And there are probably 100 other things I could put in here. What do you think about that definition?

0:03:45.1 Tim: Yeah, that's a short definition, Junior. Yeah, that's a short one.

0:03:48.0 Junior: That's right.

0:03:49.0 Tim: There are clinical definitions that go on and on and on. So this is a typical example.

0:03:55.5 Junior: And if you couldn't tell, LeaderFactor has a bias for practicality. And so we're going to try and move away from some of those definitions, and we will get to our own. But before we get to our own, let's start with the history. Where does EQ come from? Where does this term live? When was it born? It's been around as long as humans have emotional intelligence itself, but it wasn't until the late 20th century that it became a formal research topic. So in 1920, Edward Thorndike introduces the idea of social intelligence. And obviously his research comes from somewhere, and there are antecedents that kind of all work together to get to this point but it's an important milestone, social intelligence. Here's how he defines it. The ability to understand and manage men and women and boys and girls to act wisely in human relations. It's an interesting definition, isn't it?

0:04:52.0 Tim: That's 1920. Yeah, it's 1920, Junior.

0:04:55.8 Junior: Over 100 years ago.

0:04:57.0 Tim: Yeah, it's over 100 years ago. And it's a pretty standard definition, and it's really good to trace the history and understand the antecedents. This is a good one.

0:05:06.7 Junior: So this definition is very much like interpersonal intelligence, a definition that you'll also find is one of the types of intelligence identified in Howard Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences. I'm sure many of our listeners are familiar with Howard Gardner. It's very closely related to theory of mind. Another milestone comes 44 years later. Michael Beldoch published a paper titled Sensitivity to Expression of Emotional Meaning in Three Modes of Communication. He expands on this idea of social intelligence and human interaction. Then we move to 1990, very popular reference, Peter Salovey, John Mayer. They publish an article in a journal called Imagination, Cognition, and Personality. They define emotional intelligence itself. So now we've moved away from this social intelligence definition into EQ. "The ability to monitor one's own and others feelings and emotions, to discriminate among them, and to use this information to guide one's thinking and action." Pretty good definition. What do you think?

0:06:12.6 Tim: Yeah, and that's a quote from that academic article. It's pretty good. Pay attention to the verbs, by the way. Let me go through that again, Junior. The ability to monitor, so there's the first verb, monitor one's own and others feelings and emotions, number two, to discriminate among them, number three, and to use this information to guide, number four, guide one's thinking and action. It's good, it's solid. It's also interesting to note, Junior, that this article that was published in 1990 was really the jumping off point for the explosion of emotional intelligence as a research topic in academe and then also the consequent explosion in the world of organizations to understand emotional intelligence, measure emotional intelligence, train on emotional intelligence and try to get better. So this was that stepping-off point back in 1990 that really got things going.

0:07:16.6 Junior: Another very notable '95. Daniel Goldman publishes his book Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ. And this book popularizes the concept, it brings attention to a much wider audience. So it brings it into the practitioner space and even more broadly than those practicing in business. This is a book that's widely read.

0:07:41.0 Tim: Yeah, it is widely read.

0:07:43.1 Junior: The World Economic Forum names EQ a top 10 skill for the workforce of 2020. So those are not all of the references that we could put in here. We need to put a stop to it at some point. But those are a few noteworthy references that lead us all the way 100 plus years ago, from 1920 to today. And you'll start to see some of the distinctions that are made across time. You see the introduction of some of those verbs, monitoring, discriminating, and then using. Where before, it was just this amorphous idea of social interaction being good at it or not good at it, and we've become better at breaking it down into its component parts. One of the conversations coming out of that research is EQ and personality. Now, this has pretty much been put to bed, but we're going to touch on it for just a minute. It's almost an uncontested finding at this point that emotional intelligence cannot be accurately classified as a trait, let alone a fixed trait. It's something that can be learned, something that can be developed. You can get better. What do you have to say here, Tim?

0:09:00.0 Tim: No, that's really true. And so I think a good reference for this is to, as a reference, to look at the big five personality traits that's the most what, authoritative, widely respected model of personality, openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness and neuroticism? Well, what's the consensus view about personality, specifically with respect to those five personality traits? And the consensus view is that there is evolution over time. There is gradual change and evolution, but with the caveat that there isn't really fundamental change, that they stay relatively fixed over time. Yeah, there's some evolution, but it's not fundamental change that's, I think that is the consensus view.

0:09:53.1 Junior: That's an appropriate distinction. We want to make sure that we look at those two things accurately. One of the ways that we put it is the core and the crust. The core being your personality, your core disposition, your temperament, the crust being EQ, the way you deliver your skills, your disposition and your temperament. Another way that you might look at it, you could think of EQ, let's say, IQ and skills as the engine of a car, and you could think about EQ as the steering wheel and the pedals. So you have the core of this thing that goes from one place to another, but it's unwieldy without the management components that govern it of EQ. So, core and crust, engine, steering wheel, EQ, personality.

0:10:44.0 Junior: So let's talk about our definition now that we've gone through some other definitions. We've gone through a little bit of the history. Here's our long and clinical definition, the ability to interact effectively with other people. That's it. The ability to interact effectively with others. That's what EQ boils down to. And so if you look at some of those other definitions, this is the essence. This is, in our opinion, the most practical way to view emotional intelligence. Everything that you have to have in that definition and nothing that you don't. We've tried to squeeze out about as much as you can. The ability, so that word is important, not the trait, the ability meaning that you can do it poorly, you can do it well and that's something that you can practice over time, to interact...

0:11:34.2 Tim: Get better.

0:11:35.0 Junior: Yep. Effectively with others. So without other people, there is no EQ. EQ comes out when we interact. So, Tim, I like this definition.

0:11:46.5 Tim: I love this definition because it gets to the essence of the concept and what emotional intelligence is all about. But I want to back up and I want to talk about emotional intelligence as a construct, something that we're trying to measure. In social science, emotional intelligence is actually a very difficult thing to measure. It's what we call a composite variable or a combinatorial variable or a multidimensional variable. What does that mean? It just means that it has many different aspects or facets to it. And so getting your arms around it and measuring it accurately is a hard thing. It's not an easy thing to do. But why does it matter ? Ultimately, what is the goal? What is the objective? It's all in the service, as you said, Junior, of interacting effectively with other humans. That's what this is all about. So there is some complexity in being able to measure it accurately, but ultimately, the goal is pretty straightforward. It's pretty clear why emotional intelligence is important and why we want to get better. So I just want to make that distinction. There's complexity, yes, and we're going to get into the way we measure it. But the essence of the concept is pretty simple.

0:13:10.6 Junior: I'm glad that you pointed that out, because we talked several episodes back about measuring psychological safety. And we talked about psychological safety being multifactorial, you need to break it down in its component parts in order to measure it effectively. And so much of what you're measuring is going to depend on your definition, how you define what it is that you're measuring. And so when we measure emotional intelligence, what are we measuring? Your ability to interact effectively with other people. So let's get into the component parts of emotional intelligence. We've gone through the general definition, we've gone through the history, we've talked about what we believe EQ to be. Now we're going to go underneath that definition. We're going to excavate a little bit to talk about its component parts.

0:13:57.1 Junior: So many of those who have done research in emotional intelligence have gone down this road of asking the question, how do you measure this ability? And in order to do that they've come up with their own factors, their own constructs in order to get their hands around it and try and figure out how it works and how we might measure. So what we want to do is talk about some of these traditional models, the most popular ones, and then go into what we think is deficient. So Goldman's model goes through four main factors; self-awareness, self-management, social awareness and relationship management. So that's his answer to the question, how do you break down emotional intelligence? Those are the four. Anything on this one, Tim?

0:14:48.1 Tim: It's a good model and I want people to pay attention to a crucial distinction in the definition of emotional intelligence and that is that if you think about it, there's an inside part to emotional intelligence and there's an outside part. There are internal competencies and there are external competencies. So as we run through these three, I guess, predominant models or conceptual frameworks, I want you to think in those terms. Just think about what's on the inside, what's on the outside that will be helpful to you and then we'll add to it.

0:15:26.0 Junior: Yeah if you go back to the 1990 definition from Salovey and Mayer, remember they said the ability to monitor one's own and others. So that's the distinction. Your own and others.

0:15:39.8 Tim: That's the distinction.

0:15:40.9 Junior: Inside, outside so...

0:15:42.8 Tim: Well and if you go to Goldman, go back through Goldman, self-awareness, self-management, internal, social awareness, relationship management, both external, you see the dichotomy.

0:15:55.5 Junior: So let's go into MSCEIT. You can look these up after the fact as well and look at some of the other models. This is another dominant one. Perceiving emotions, using emotions, understanding emotions, managing emotions. So the internal, external in this model is somewhat implicit. You perceive emotions of yourself and others. You use emotions, understand and manage. Then we have EQ-I 2.0, self-perception, self-expression, self-regulation and then empathy and social skills. So this one is an asymmetrical model where the first three are internal and then you have empathy and social skills external. So interesting. Interesting that we've got these three, and there are some meaningful differences across these three, aren't there? They come at it from slightly different angle. You can see that there's not uniformity or consensus across the models.

0:16:51.7 Tim: Yeah. Let me just clarify, Junior. The second model, the second model that you mentioned, MSCEIT, that's an acronym that stands for Mayer, Salovey and Caruso Emotional Intelligence Test. So those three psychologists got together. But to your point, it all begins with a conceptual model to represent the construct. Once you have the conceptual model, then you have to build a survey instrument, a psychometric scale around that conceptual model. So the instrument cannot be any better than the conceptual model that informs it. Does that make sense? I hope that listeners understand what I'm saying. You build the conceptual model and then you build the survey instrument, or what we call the psychometric scale around that conceptual model. It's only as good as the conceptual model.

0:17:51.0 Tim: So if the conceptual model is deficient in any way, then that's what you're measuring. Because when we try to measure, what's important? Validity and reliability. Validity means you're measuring what you are intending to measure. What is reliability? Reliability means that you can consistently measure that over time. So you're going to measure it accurately, and you're going to measure it accurately again and again and again. So those are the two things that we're concerned about, validity and reliability. But it all goes back to construct validity. So, did you get you conceptual model right in the first place? And so, we are deconstructing these three pretty popular emotional intelligence tests because we're going to show you what we think are some deficiencies.

0:18:54.0 Junior: One of the ways that I like to look at validity and reliability is like a thermometer. This is the analogy that makes the most sense to me. So, does the thermometer measure temperature? If so, it's valid. Does it give you the same output at the same ambient temperature every time? That's reliability. Now, when it comes to the construct, one of the ways that you could look at it is does it have the right scale on the side? If it doesn't, it's not useful to you at all. It could be measuring something, and it could be measuring something reliably, but it may not be exactly what you want. So, let's get into the complication here of these models. And I'd be interested if, as a listener, you have caught anything yet as we've gone through those models. Is there something that has stood out to you as potentially problematic? Now, here's an important point. Behavior is symptomatic. Think about that statement for a little bit and see if you agree with it. Do you agree with this? Behavior is symptomatic. It's driven by the perceptions, the motivations, the beliefs of the individual. If all we do is look at action and behaviors, we have a profoundly incomplete conception of emotional intelligence. And if you look at some of the dominant models and some of the dominant definitions, those are the things that we're looking at. We're looking at action and behavior.

0:20:29.0 Junior: So, we also, without an appropriate model, run into what could be the most widespread critique of EQ. You're gonna start following this train of thought, and you might be able to see where I'm going. The most widespread critique of EQ is manipulation. It's sometimes called the dark side of emotional intelligence. And here's the problem in defining emotional intelligence as the ability to recognize, understand, and manage emotions. That's the dominant definition. What's conspicuously missing from this and most other definitions, some of which we went through today, is the intent and the motivation of the individual. So, if we don't account for the fundamental beliefs a person has for themselves and other people, we can easily assign high emotional intelligence to those with Machiavellian tendencies. If I'm a manipulator and I take an assessment that's based on one of those constructs, I may score really high, even in a multi-rater. Like, let's take self-assessment out and say multi-rater, and you use one of those constructs, and you're looking at my ability to, let's look at the definition, recognize, understand, and manage emotions. I might peg out the scale, but I also might be a very manipulative person.

0:21:56.6 Tim: As you said, this is the most widespread critique of current conceptions of emotional intelligence. Let me take it a step further or drill down a little bit more into charisma. The dark side of charisma, the dark side of emotional intelligence. There are people that possess charisma. Now, that concept goes back to Max Weber, the famous German sociologist that coined the term, and you can read more about that. But charisma means that you have a certain magnetism in your personality, a certain dash, a certain style. You're interpersonally skilled, and there's an attraction that people have to you because of that charisma. Now, that's not a bad thing inherently, but what it leaves out, as you said, Junior, is your motivation. What is your intent? What is your motivation as you interact with other humans?

0:22:58.8 Tim: And so, if you have an assessment of emotional intelligence that measures your perceptions and your behavior, that's fantastic, but you're missing, as you said, that third part. You're missing what you believe about yourself and what you believe about others, which is the source of your motivation and your intent. So, you have an incomplete measurement of emotional intelligence. And so, what does that mean? That means that, as you said, Junior, you could do very well on the assessment, but be a manipulative person. Well, does that really mean that you have emotional intelligence? If you have dark motives, if you're self-serving, if you exploit others, does that mean you have emotional intelligence? I don't think so. I think we can see the shortcoming of these assessments over the last 30 years, and it's become, as you said, it's conspicuously absent that they're not measuring the entire construct.

0:24:10.0 Junior: So there is the deficiency, the lack of inclusion of motivation. If we don't consider motivation in our definition and in the construct of emotional intelligence, then it's broken from the get-go, and we will not be able to appropriately measure it. So, what we're saying is the traditional view looks at, defines, measures two things, perception and action. We need to measure and define three things, motivation, perception and action. So, what lies behind behavior? We said that behavior is symptomatic. What lies behind behavior is motivation. The motivation that we bring to the table will inform our behavior. If you look at the interactions that you have with people every day, would you agree with that? That the way that people treat you and the way that you treat other people is influenced by your beliefs? Absolutely. Absolutely. Look at so many of the problems that exist today. Are they not informed by beliefs and motivation? Certainly, they are. So, motivation, perception, and action. Those are the three main components that we need to define and measure, and those three components have internal and external applications, self and others.

0:25:36.0 Junior: So, here we get into our model. We create three, what we call companionship competencies. So, if you remember back to those other assessments, they included certain competencies like self-awareness, relationship management, understanding emotions. We're going to tell you what ours are for the EQ Index Assessment. The first companion competency has to do with what is conspicuously absent in the market today, regard. Now, this word is a very specific and intentional word, regard. It relates to the belief a person has about themselves and about others, as well as the intent that a person carries towards both. So, what are your beliefs and what is your intent? So, the regard competencies probe very deeply into the motivations behind the behaviors or the prism of intent. Tim, tell us more about this companion competency.

0:26:44.5 Tim: Right. This is the one that has been absent. There are some assessments that have included part of the companionship competency. There are some that have included social regard, but then they'll miss out on self-regard. You have to include both. They are companionship competencies, one addresses what you believe about yourself, and then the other side, social regard, concerns what you believe about others. So, if you think about it in a flow chart, I want you to think about it linearly. So, Junior, you talked about what are the three components that must be a part of the definition? Motivation, perception, and action. Okay. Now, let's think about it in a cause and effect chain. So, if you're going from left to right, think about it this way in your mind. Motivation and perception are informing and driving action. Does that make sense? So you have motivation, and you have perception and then you have action. Your action is flowing from, your action is resulting from the combination of motivation and perception that you bring to the situation. And your motivation is both internal and external, and your perceptions are both internal and external. So, that is the way that it works. Your beliefs and your perceptions and your understanding about both yourself and others then inform the way that you act. And so, your behavior and your actions flow from both the motivation and the perceptions that you have.

0:28:22.9 Junior: It's hard to argue against that. The second companion competency is based on awareness, or our perceptive capacity, and includes both self-awareness and social awareness. They're separate, but related competencies similar to the third. The third competency is management. In the internal domain, self-management is what we call it, refers to one's regulatory capacity, our ability to self-govern. Externally, it refers to the ability to influence others in the context of interpersonal relationships. So, we use the motivation and the perception and the action as part of our understanding of EQ, which informs this construct for EQ Index. So, we call this the EQ Index model, and it's a symmetrical six competency model. Self-regard, what you believe about yourself. Social regard, what you believe about others. Self-awareness, what you know about yourself. Social awareness, what you know about others. Self-management, how you regulate yourself and self-govern, and social management, how you influence others. So, we use this construct to then go, as Tim said, and build the assessment. You build the... After you have the construct, you can measure. This is the only model that appropriately solves for beliefs and motivation. So without addressing the beliefs, we don't address the cause, we're left only with symptoms. So the way that we've solved for that is the inclusion of these regard competencies.

0:30:00.0 Tim: That's right. So there's perfect symmetry, Junior, in the conceptual model that we then have built the psychometric scale around. Let me just point to one distinction, and that is in the last companionship competencies of self-management and social management. Self-management, as you said, is the regulatory function to self-govern. It's self-control. Really, this is what it's about, it's self-control. So we could call it self-control, but the companion competency would not be social control. You can't extend that and say social control. You don't control others, you influence others. There's the distinction. So, self-management is about self-regulation and control, but social management is about influencing others, not controlling others. So that's just an important distinction that we need to understand.

0:30:55.3 Junior: It is. We're not going to get into it today, but there's another layer behind those competencies, which we call skills. So, inside self-awareness, we have five skills. Behind social regard, we have five skills. So, the model is a six competency model, each competency has five skills behind it. So, six competencies, 30 skills. And for each skill, there's a subscale. So, it's a comprehensive instrument. It's, I don't want to say long, I'll say comprehensive. It's a little bit long.

0:31:35.0 Tim: It's not too long.

0:31:35.7 Junior: No, it's not too long. It takes 15 minutes. It gives you a very accurate picture of your motivation, your perception, and your action. So, as we wrap up today, Tim, I would love to hear your perspective on why is this important for individuals and organizations? Why should we be paying attention to emotional intelligence? What is the motivation that an organization might have to address this, understand it, develop it? Why is this important?

0:32:10.8 Tim: Let me answer this way, Junior. How many of you listeners out there have worked with people on your team or maybe in a cross-functional relationship or could have been with another stakeholder somewhere sometime. And the people that you're working with or the individual is highly skilled, highly experienced, highly competent, highly knowledgeable, but they're not effective. So, I want you to think about that. Let's put all of that in the basket of IQ, even though that's an oversimplification. But their IQ is enormously high, and I'm defining that very broadly. All of the experience and knowledge and competence and skills. What's the problem? The problem is that they have an underdeveloped delivery system, and that's exactly what emotional intelligence is. It is your delivery system. EQ delivers IQ. It delivers experience. It delivers skills. It delivers knowledge and competency. If the emotional intelligence is not working, partially working, if it's underdeveloped, then that becomes a limiting factor, even a derailer.

0:33:33.1 Tim: It bottlenecks your ability to deliver value wherever you are, with whomever you're working, the folks that you're working with. It's going to get in the way. So you can't overcome the deficiencies in your delivery system with your knowledge and your skills and your intelligence, your IQ, so to speak. That's what this is all about. It's allowing you... The more that you develop your emotional intelligence, the more that you de-bottleneck your ability to create and deliver value, because what are you doing? You're enhancing, you're improving, you're developing that delivery system. So, I want you to think about the evolution of delivery in the physical sense, in our world. You go back a hundred years and say you ordered a package of some kind, a parcel of some kind. How did it arrive? Horse and buggy, right? And then we move forward, and there's a car or a truck that delivers your package. And now, where are we? We're going into drone delivery. So we've advanced. We've gone to the next generation of the delivery system. This is what we're talking about. Your emotional intelligence is nothing less than your delivery system. It is the conduit of your influence. What could be more important than that when it comes to your effectiveness with other humans? It's the essence of being effective with other humans.

0:35:12.4 Junior: It makes me think about, on a personal level, if we each think about our jobs, our roles and responsibilities, how correlated is the ability to do our job with the ability to interact effectively with other people? Pretty tightly correlated. And so as we get better at interacting with others, we'll become more influential. We'll have better relationships with others. We'll be able to do our jobs better, more efficiently, and we'll be able to bring our organizations along. So, that is today's conversation about emotional intelligence. Let's talk for a second about the assessment. If you have found value in today's episode, if you're interested in hearing more about EQ and getting notified when we release EQ Index to the public, go fill out the form at leaderfactor.com/podcast.

0:36:05.5 Junior: There will be a link in the show notes of today's episode. Now, we're going to start teasing this. It is upcoming, so we're not there quite yet. We've got a few more episodes to do, some last-minute UI tweaks and things of that nature, and then we will release to the public this next version of EQ Index. We've had great success with our clients over the years in using this definition of emotional intelligence to train and to measure EQ. And we want to spread that more broadly, make it widely available. So this is one of the neatest things that we have been working on behind the scenes. The team is really excited to have all of you try it out. So I'm not entirely sure what this will all entail. If it's going to be discounted, if it's going to be, I don't know what that's going to look like. The marketing team has some cool things in store, I am sure. But just know that it will be available soon, and you'll be able to get the entire profile based on motivation, perception, and action that we talked about today. So, Tim, any final words?

0:37:09.0 Tim: Well, I just have to say that the new user interface and the new data visualization is incredible. It is state-of-the-art, and great job, Junior, to you and your team. This new version is unbelievable.

0:37:22.4 Junior: I'm really excited for everyone listening to try it out. So, yeah, you listening, try it out. It's going to be awesome. So thank you, everybody, for your time, your attention. We appreciate your listenership very much. We really do. We talk about it all the time as a team. We look at the podcast metrics, and we look at the interaction, and it's something we're very grateful for. We're grateful for the work that you do in the world. We know it's difficult. Many of you have difficult roles, and we are here to support you. You can always reach out to us at leaderfactor.com. We always appreciate your likes, your reviews, and your shares. If you liked today's episode, please send it to someone who you think might find it valuable. And with that, we will wrap up, say take care, and we'll see you next time. Bye-bye.

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0:38:15.8 Freddy: Hey, Culture by Design listeners, this is the end of today's episode. You can find all the important links from today's episode at leaderfactor.com/podcast. And if you found today's episode helpful and useful in any way, please share with a friend and leave a review. If you'd like to learn more about LeaderFactor and what we do, then please visit us at leaderfactor.com. Lastly, if you'd like to give any feedback to the Culture by Design podcast or even request a topic from Tim and Junior, then reach out to us at info@leaderfactor.com or find and tag us on LinkedIn. Thanks again for listening and making culture something you do by design, not by default.

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